Ladies and Gentlemen

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Combat VS Garou/Werewolf and Kindred/Vampire

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Ladies and Gentlemen

Post by Victor Erion on Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:56 pm

Hello all!... Tonight i come with a very interesting and a special question! i want you to ask your selfs and decide as of the best of knowledge you have about the appointed foes that will be enlisted here.
We all know the world that we live in? correct?!... and the world of Vampire the Masquerade:Redemption!...
And so with this said! i ask you all! say wht you think to the best of your abilities and knowledge as you can.
And now to the subject at hand!... please be as convincing as you can at this...
Who do you think will win in a fight between a Vampire and a Werewolf... yes yes i know what you will all say... but lets examine this shall we?...
What are the chances that a werewolf single one can beat a vampire of every clan that is known in vampire in a 1 on 1 mortal combat?... yes of each vampire clan 1 vampire vs 1 werewolf... after that is done lets add the number of 2 vampires and then a whole pack of vampires vs 1 werewolf!... speak your mind, say what you think and prefer!...
If you have... in which i am sure you did read the core book of VTMR (i am lausy at the moment so thats why i shortened the name Razz)... With all of this said consider who woud win in this fight, the garou? or the kindred?...
NOTE!!!!: The Garou Also has his own "SPIRTITUAL POWERS" which can be said that they can be devided in disciplines...
and i must say that i am sorry for not finding any info on garou powers but i shall seek out a few if i can and post em here...
after that they may be posted in the disciplines page if you dont feel to laisy...
OK! its for the Voting People! decide and also write why you think a vampire? or a werewolf? will win in the fight!
*ahum!* i shall already cast my vote on the Garou/Werewolf side (((((why you ask? hm... good question... and i shall answer it!
i prefer Werewolfs much more over vampires there are a few reasons to that but i shall not say em here ^^, but that is not the reason i am voting on the werewolf, im voting on the werewolf because it is more well lets say superior to the vampire at least at my point of view... much more stronger than any other vampire will ever be!, well except the antideluvian i curse you *curses the antideluvians for beeng stronger* and it has Spiritual powers that match the vampire ones... in pnp rolling or otherwise!! the werewolf gets a few strikes which all deal agg damage, a couple of strikes in 1 round, a vampire can strike 3 or 4 times but with celirity depends on ST... werewolf can do much more, a bonus that is very good to a werewolf is that he regenerates at a fast rate in each turn his HP in other words healing points or health... can soak allmost all kinds of damage but if you really want to hurt a werewolf the only way of doing it! for a long period ofcoarse is by doing him agg damage which is cause by a vampires teeth or a gangrels claws etc... ok i have posted why i think a werewolf is better than a vampire... and yes a garou is actualy a living thing so it does need to breathe!!!!... yes thank you!... oh! BTW! i almost forgot to say this! silly me >< you can have a multiple choice on the voting so no worries if you misclick it Razz )))))
NOW GET TO DISSCUSING AND VOTING AND WHICH SPECIES YOU THINK SHALL WIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh!... yes and ofcoarse!... where are my maners?!?... *ahum* Good night Razz or as i say it in my way!
Have A bad day!!!... (and i dont really mean it! im just joking, want it to sound evilishly... yes well you can curse me all you want ill still be the same Razz).

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Re: Ladies and Gentlemen

Post by Hydrogen on Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:31 pm

Well, White Wolf created the 3 big gamelines with this in mind i think. The Vampire is (generally speaking) a Social creature while the Werewolf is a Physical crfeature and a Mage is a Mental creature. In a 1 vs 1 Fight between a vampire and a werewolf (equally powerful that is( a Methusela would snap a pup in two)) the Werewolf would win. The only reason why the garou has not wiped the kindred out is because the vampires control more human institutions then the garou does. Also, a Mage who is prepared enough could easily take down a werewolf in combat. an example of this is the spell "rip man body" which reopens all the previous wounds a person or creature ever had (at the same time).
a seasoned werewolf warrior would be killed instantly Twisted Evil
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Re: Ladies and Gentlemen

Post by Hydrogen on Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:34 pm

Also a werewolf heals aggravated damage as kindred heals lethal damage (except wounds done by a silver weapon) and they have Rage which is their version of celerity (rated 1-10) so even an Elder vampire will have problem in a fight against a seasoned garou)
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Re: Ladies and Gentlemen

Post by Victor Erion on Fri Aug 07, 2009 12:19 am

Well as in the core book says even Methuselahs have fallen easy prey to the werewolfs Razz
so i gues its more of a whos a better skilled worrior and probably luckier. Cool

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Re: Ladies and Gentlemen

Post by Gast on Fri Aug 07, 2009 12:24 am

in nWoD a 250 year old Vampire (Elder) is on par with a Werewolf in Warform, however warform is not indefinate, whipe the Elders skills are, also gunshots are still lethal to a werewolf while for a vampire its just bashing

I think its situational

both know a fight is going down, both have an equal chance to win
however suprises the other will most likley win

but neonate vampires are almost assured to fail against a werewolf, same for ancillae

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Re: Ladies and Gentlemen

Post by Aero on Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:56 am

I go for an undead werewolf



(and I don't mean Abomination)

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Re: Ladies and Gentlemen

Post by Victor Erion on Fri Aug 07, 2009 12:34 pm

lethal damage doesnt do much of a harm to the werewolf... he can heal it rapidly in every turn or lets say round in combat, the only damage that the werewolf heals like a normal human woud is the aggraved damage... but yes indeedly suprises can work to each others advantage, good point there. Razz
Oh! yes an undead werewolf woud be stronger mostlikely even more advantages... but his reproducing system e.i his gender organs will most probably not work... so i gues the species then is going to to transfering lets say some kind of a virus to transform humans into this new breed of werewolfs... there may be other changes as well... he probably again wont be able to feed like a normal person does... he most probably either requere lots of meat to sustain himself... or he will need blood like the other vampires... in this process he might lose his gnosis abilities but he might be able to learn some vampiritic abilities... so i gues the only way of getting such a undead werewolf is either he mating with a most probably a freshly embraced vampire whos gender male organs still work... ofcoarse the werewolf needs to be female cos the vampire body is kind of dead and mostlikely it will throw out the baby...
all in all its a pretty good thought there nice one Razz

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Re: Ladies and Gentlemen

Post by Trogers2 on Sat Aug 08, 2009 10:49 pm

Bare in mind there are some OP OWOD disciplines Razz

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Re: Ladies and Gentlemen

Post by Doe on Sun Aug 09, 2009 1:13 pm

Hush trogs Razz

Werewolf overall would win imho. Most vampires are social and bare in mind realistic weaponary for a vampire would be small arms. Not acid swords and Dragonsbreath.
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Re: Ladies and Gentlemen

Post by isador on Sun Aug 09, 2009 5:45 pm

I've talked this over with you on msn a thousand times, there's no way a vampire would win!

As anruca is thinking in OWOD (or well something similiar anyway) lets do the comparason. Here i list the typical statistics for a fledgeling vampire (combat orientated for the sake of making him able to defend himself) and an inexperienced adolescent werewolf (As taken from the corebook):

vampire: werewolf
Strength 3 Strength 3
Dexterity 4 Dexterity 3
Stamina 3 Stamina 3
Manipulation 2 Manipulation 2
Charisma 2 Charisma 2
Appearence 2 Appearence 2
Perception 3 Perception 3
Intelligence 2 Intelligence 2
Wits 3 Wits 3

Now on top of that both will have some abilities etc, but lets look at the attributes first. At first glance, the vampire appears to be superior thanks to the boost it gets from it's undead transformation. HOWEVER, werewolves that are in their wolfman battleform DOUBLE their base Physical attributes, meaning their total becomes 6 Strength, 6 Dexterity and 6 Stamina. Thats more then most elders can hope to reach, and this is a werewolf that is just starting out! Elders among the werewolves usually have 5 Strength, 4 Dexterity and 5 Stamina (also taken from the corebook) which totals into a monsterous 10 Strength, 8 Dexterity and 10 Stamina, which only an antidiluvian can match. Now however, both races also have their pros and cons in special conditions or abilities, the next chart shows the difference in those abilities.

Vampires
Can raise their attributes by spending bloodpoints, up to their generational limit.
Werewolf
Doubles all Physical attributes when transformed into wolfman form.

Vampires
Have access to 3 different disciplines depending on clan.
Werewolf
Attains spirit powers over the course of their life.

Vampires
Can heal damage by spending bloodpoints, limited by their generation and bloodpool.
Werewolf
Heals one level of Bashing or Lethal every turn naturally.

Vampires
Must sleep and spend 5 bloodpoints to heal Aggravated damage.
Werewolf
Needs only sleep a night to heal Aggravated.

Vampire
Can soak both Bashing and Lethal with Stamina, can only soak Aggravated with the Fortitude discipline.
Werewolf
Can soak Bashing, Lethal and Aggravated with their Stamina rating.

Vampires
Takes Aggravated damage from fire, sunlight and supernatural weaponry.
Werewolf
Takes Aggravated damage from fire, silver and supernatural weaponry

Vampires
Bashing damage is halved, damage from bullets is Bashing.
Werewolves
Bashing damage is NOT halved, bullets deal Lethal as normal

Vampires
Require blood to fuel powers, which can only be gained by hunting the living.
Werewolf
Requires Gnosis to fuel mystical powers, can be regained through meditation and dealing with spirits.

Vampires
Can only transform using only the Protean discipline.
Werewolves
Can naturally transform into human form, dire human form, wolf form, fire wolf form and wolfman form.

Vampires
Naturally has only fist and teeth, only teeth deal Aggravated.
Werewolves
Has natural claws and a maw, both deal Aggravated.

Vampires
Can attack several times per turn if the vampire has the Celerity discipline.
Werewolves
Attack several times per turn.

On top of all of this, the ST can also give werewolves "discipline powers" to represent the werewolves' natural abilities. The most basic werewolf has abilities about equal to level 4 Protean, level 3 Celerity and level 1 Potence, but stronger werewolves have much stronger abilities, many of which entirely unknown to vampires, such as physically being able to move through the Astral Plane.

Sure, this is not to say werewolves have everything going for them when compared to vampires. Werewolves age and die normally and reproduce extraordinarily slowly (because every offspring of a werewolf only has a 10% chance or something to actually become a werewolf) unlike vampires, who live forever and can embrace freely. (though ofcourse, they cant do that if there are no humans and most vampires arent keen on helping eachother, even if it's sire and childe.) Werewolves must eat, sleep and breathe, while a vampire sustains itself on nothing but human blood. (though is forced to go to sleep during the day.) However! The most important point is that no normal vampire no matter how experienced is able to take on a werewolf 1 on 1. Hell, the strongest werewolves would even be a threat to the antidiluvians. The only way for a vampire to beat a werewolf is if the vampire prepares well ahead of time, ensuring that the fight is every little bit in favor of the vampire. This usually involves planning an ambush, using silver weapons (usually high caliber firearms) and explosives to top it off. It's no small engagement to take down a werewolf even in this manner, requiring heavy investment of time and resources, (as silver rounds must undoubtedly be custom made) is very likely to draw the attention of other more dangerous organisations and on top of that, even all this is no guarantuee the vampire will win the fight. You've also mentioned the argument that certain sorcerous powers would aid against werewolves, this is indeed so, but a Shroud of the Night will likely do nothing more then desorientate or confuse a werewolf at the best of circumstances, an elder werewolf will likely not even be hampered by it that much, and for example, Blood Boil the level 5 Thaumaturgy power from the Path of Blood would require the vampire to TOUCH the werewolf, and if that isn't suicide i dont know what is.

*pfew* that was a shitload of text

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Re: Ladies and Gentlemen

Post by Victor Erion on Sun Aug 09, 2009 8:33 pm

yes thank you indeed isador Razz but i surely wanted to see what other people will say aswell.
well there hasnt been to much chat but the info that we talked and again said, is pretty helpfull i salute you...

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Re: Ladies and Gentlemen

Post by Trogers2 on Sun Aug 09, 2009 10:48 pm

what about disciplines like Chimerstry, Quietus, Dominate and Thaumaturgy i.e. Movement of mind, Lure of flames?

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Re: Ladies and Gentlemen

Post by isador on Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:07 pm

Chimerstry is nice but experienced werewolves can probably call on powers or rituals that allow the werewolf see see through the illusions
Quietus is also nice, but it's applications require the user to go into melee with the werewolf, which is well-known to be suicide
Dominate would work, but werewolves are still supernaturals and as such can resist Dominate.
Thaumaturgy, thaumaturgy defenately gives the vampire an edge over werewolves, but werewolves have their own mystical powers which i'm sure give them just an edge.
Movement of the mind, well a werewolf is much heavier then a normal mortal so lifting one up would require at least level 5 Movement of the Mind
Lure of Flames, well this one can be rather volatile. Using Lure of Flames at a level powerfull enough to take down a werewolf means that the vampire is likely putting itself into just as dangerous a situation as with the werewolf

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Re: Ladies and Gentlemen

Post by Doe on Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:21 pm

Plus, Thaumaturgy and Lure of Flames can take a number of turns to cast. By which point the kindred will likely be ripped apart.
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Re: Ladies and Gentlemen

Post by Gast on Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:18 pm

thats why you behead a werewolf, or shoot him in the head while hes in man form :p
Even with warform... well i dont know about owod BS but in nWoD a Desert Eagle with some lucky rolls and a skilled marksman (Emilie had a dicepool of 9 with bloodbuff 11)

so in the end id say 50% depends on rolls as well Razz a powerful enough gun and character can kill a werewolf in 2 shots, cant outheal 11 dice of damage...

also, Feral Claws last for a scene, while a werewolf can only stay in warform for a set amount of turns..

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Re: Ladies and Gentlemen

Post by Doe on Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:05 pm

It seems in Nwod Werewolves have been toned down somewhat. they were rather OP in Owod.

Then again, kindred dont get the same disciplines, so i think the playing field is a level as it was before.
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Re: Ladies and Gentlemen

Post by isador on Mon Aug 10, 2009 6:24 pm

Moepy wrote:thats why you behead a werewolf, or shoot him in the head while hes in man form :p
Even with warform... well i dont know about owod BS but in nWoD a Desert Eagle with some lucky rolls and a skilled marksman (Emilie had a dicepool of 9 with bloodbuff 11)

so in the end id say 50% depends on rolls as well Razz a powerful enough gun and character can kill a werewolf in 2 shots, cant outheal 11 dice of damage...

also, Feral Claws last for a scene, while a werewolf can only stay in warform for a set amount of turns..

Not an expert on how it works in OWOD but from what i know there's no limit to the amount of time the werewolf can stay in warform. In fact, a specific breed of werewolves (inbreeds, dont renember the exact name) are naturally in warform their entire lives, untill they voluntarily transform. Also, in OWOD firearms arent as strong vs werewolves as in NWOD, as werewolves can soak the damage Razz and dice pools tend to be smaller in OWOD.

With that all been said, not everyone and their mother's has a .50 cal handcannon, nor does everyone have the means to get one and hide it from mortal law enforcement even if you are a vampire

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Re: Ladies and Gentlemen

Post by Doe on Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:09 pm

Its not that hard to get a firearm. and a doubletap from a .45 does the same amount of damage as a Deagle, technically.

It depends on the area you live in i guess, when it comes to the aquisition of firearms.

Regardless though, as it has been said. It depends on the situation....
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Re: Ladies and Gentlemen

Post by Aero on Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:19 am

isador wrote:Vampires
Naturally has only fist and teeth, only teeth deal Aggravated.
Werewolves
Has natural claws and a maw, both deal Aggravated.
Hold on, teeth deal aggro damage and not lethal?

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Re: Ladies and Gentlemen

Post by ShadowLance on Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:09 am

I forget how it works exactly, I don't have my book on me, but yeah teeth deal agg.

As for the ole werewolf vs vampire question...


Neonate vs werewolf: absolutely not. Neonate has just as little chance as a human.
Ancillae vs werewolf: possible with enough advantages, like surprise, cunning, planning, etc. But not likely. In a straight 1v1 fight like you say, no chance.
Elder vs werewolf: Depends on the elder, and depends on the werewolf. I'd say the odds are 2:3 in favor of the werewolf on average. As was mentioned, werewolves are mortal. So all of those vampire disciplines that do especially nasty things to humans do the same to werewolves.

The nice thing about werewolves is that they often act like neonate/fledgling vampires, drunk with power, cocky, and reckless. I've killed several player werewolves with lone neonate vampires because of that.

Also note that werewolves need a full turn to shift to Crinos (though I think there's a werewolf ability to shift instantly, which is horribly unrealistic and unbalanced if you ask me).

I'm mostly going over the werewolves' weaknesses because they are extremely overpowered in combat as mentioned.

I mean random average werewolf with no xp earned: 7-10 dice of agg damage, 7-10 dice of soak for agg damage, not weak vs stakes, fire, or sunlight (all very common), but weak vs silver (not common at all).

Think about a vampire with those kind of dice.

Okay I'm making a brand new neonate character, no xp earned, for your chronicle. He's going to be a gangrel with 8 strength, 7dexterity, 9 fortitude, 5 celerity, and protean for aggravated damage claws.... oh, and has custom merits to be immune to sunlight, stakes, and fire. But don't worry, I took the 2 point vulnerability to silver flaw! Very Happy

Anyways... lol

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Re: Ladies and Gentlemen

Post by Victor Erion on Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:30 am

indeed!... it woud be good to have a character that strong, but werewolves are not like vampires... there is indeedly a very big diffrence.
By the way... no neonate starts with a power as 9 or 5 that woud be very good but he is not an elder or higher... yes a werewolfs is strong but the setback is that hes mortal... he lives and dies like any other human beeng even ages which sucks alot ><... but that setback does give the vampire so fairness in a fight... if both of them were undead then the werewolf woud win in every single fight... if now one ca n take on a whole crowd of kindred the hell what woud it be like if he was undead? o.o i mean the vampires woud have to go in hiding like rats and not show their nose out the window or the door in fear...
The weakness to silver is only when he is in warform, or beast form if thats how you like it better.
couple of gunshot wounds wont slow either the vampire or the wolf, there may be some litle damage done but it will hardly be enough...
If you plan on kiling a werewolf with a deagle well you have to be very far away and one hell of a gunslinger, and the deagle wasnt meant for werewolfs to be killed it may have the same effect but 7 bullets in a magazine? if you have hit the werewolf once the hell you might have enraged him and by the time you put another magazine in the gun he will be at your nose sort of speach... in other words it shoud be an upgraded deagle which cost hell of alot more than the normal, and you can only get an upgrade from the black market which also is more pricy... the werewolf woud just have to run around for you to go out of bullets then just rip you apart... so be sure to bring atleast a sac full of ammunition (which will slow you down alot)...
And if you do have a close combat weapon well lets just say theres no good done in there, with the couple of strikes the werewolf gets and if enraged he might get even more but that depends on ST... i gues 3 or 4 strikes dont really know how much or many he does in a round... and even if you hit him the werewolf woud just go on with healing lets say automaticly every round his wounds while still fighting, indeed its suicide to go againts a werewolf... even if he is a pup.

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Re: Ladies and Gentlemen

Post by isador on Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:53 pm

ShadowLance wrote:not weak vs stakes, fire, or sunlight (all very common), but weak vs silver (not common at all).

According to the vampire corebook, werewolves do take aggr from fire Razz Yeah nitpicking i know

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Re: Ladies and Gentlemen

Post by Doe on Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:35 pm

That reminds me of an old fravorite quote of mine ''STFU you Ruleslawyeringwhingemachine'' Razz

I joke!!
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Re: Ladies and Gentlemen

Post by ShadowLance on Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:42 pm

Ahh, I was just pretty sure they could soak agg in crinos. I'm not that familiar with werewolves though

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Re: Ladies and Gentlemen

Post by isador on Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:58 pm

There's a small article on werewolves in the VTM corebook. They CAN soak aggr with stamina, and fire deals Aggravated just like silver! Didn't say if it was just in the battleform though.

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